From glc at rowesprinkler.com Mon May 2 10:44:26 2011 From: glc at rowesprinkler.com (George Church) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 11:44:26 -0400 Subject: Earthquake Bracing In-Reply-To: References: <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121D390F2D2@RAPID-08.RFP.local> <625571737.20110422065849@sc.rr.com> <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121D390F379@RAPID-08.RFP.local> <723E6B5F-1973-4FC2-9F96-9FC8E8D186A5@njfiresystems.com> <1761964839-1303495621-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2016031969-@bda2610.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <7ECFA8F7-ACB6-4F3D-9862-57CB7CB07846@njfiresystems.com> <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A3569A@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> <4DBB013A.4080007@aol.com>, Message-ID: <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A35917@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> I'm not sure what code of ethics this industry had as an industry... http://www.nfsa.org/codeofethics.pdf is the code of ethics for members of the NFSA. The FL and GA state associations have one, SFPE has a Canon of Ethics, NSPE has one, NICET has one..... and I'm sure if you don't believe the training you got from the best local in the whole world was worthwhile, one would hope that your claim they are the best in the world may be a bit dubious. As for the problem you seem to perceive of excess profits, I believe the economy cured this problem for about all of us for the past couple years. As a contractor who would like to make a profit, is entitled to make a profit, and has made significant investment at risk to create a firm capable of making profits, I personally am offended by your claim that any time we save a buck over what your opinion of what should have been done, we're making excessive profits. Seems you not only investigate, but do so with the unscrupulous contractor already convicted, by your predisposition. You carry a gavel and magnifying glass with your fine-tooth comb? If you expect to have installers at a minimum of NICET Level II, how would you keep them certified as "active practioners"? If your field force is actively involved in the layout of fire sprinkler systems, then there's something wrong with your organization. If you're having them certified but not allowing them to keep their certification current, what have you accomplished? You'd have guys who once passed a test on a body of knowledge, but are no longer recognized- in NYC or anywhere else in the country- as NICET-certified ETs. Or, you could keep them certified by misleading NICET as to their true duties- not likely from someone bemoaning the lack of ethics in our industry, I hope. As a contractor employing CETs and encouraging NICET certification, as a guy intimately involved in the rewrite of what NICET certification is intended to provide our industry, and as a proud member of the automatic sprinkler industry here in the USA, I find your insistence in having fitters certified puzzling, and your general condemnation of unscrupulous contractors disturbing. I'm not against additional education beyond the usual base metrics, but our industry has produced a product for over 100 years that has served the public very well. Research what you're contracting to do, get it designed, install it, perform acceptance testing, and try to have them maintain it. Each role is defined, and although I'll be the first to tell you it isn't perfect, its working a lot better than many things in our society. I've tried to improve the certification process and how it fits in the sprinkler industry of the new millennium, you work on taking the licenses of those not complying by the rules. I wish I could say that the system works, but that jerk that glued concealed plates to the ceiling is still hanging pipe for his brother in NorCal. You've got your work cut out for you, and if your job is to deal with nothing but the worst contractors in your area, I can see where you'd get a jaded perspective. George L. Church, Jr., CET ? Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE?????? 570-837-6335 fax glc at rowesprinkler.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus M Carrasquillo Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:55 PM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing No debate here. Everything started because field technicians do not understand sway bracing specs and installations. If such technician had some sort of certification such as NICET most likely problem could have being figured out in the field. All technicians know how to do is cut and thread pipe and that is sad for the industry. That is why these industry no longer has code of ethics. Is more of reducing cost to make larger profits. That is all. Thankfully I am on the other side of the fence. Investigate unscrupulous contractors that did not performed work as required by industry standards -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Craig.Prahl at ch2m.com Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:17 PM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing I wouldn't care if my foreman was a Nicet IV. Just passing the test is only part of understanding system design and layouts. So no disrespect intended but the layout decisions need to be made by someone with more knowledge of the project than the installer unless he, himself, determined all the criteria, did the design and was also going to be the one who personally installed the job. Adlibbing in the field without understanding why something was laid out a certian way isn't always a good idea. But honestly where's the debate, if you want to get you field guys NICET certified, go for it. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 ________________________________________ From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus M Carrasquillo [jmc at njfiresystems.com] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:54 PM To: fwilson at cherokee-fire.com; sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing Well I understand all that and do respect everyone's opinions as well however let me explain myself a little better. First of all 75-80 % of all states do not recognize apprenticeship programs for any licensing purposes. I am licensed in 7 states and the first thing they told me was "If you are not NICET certified don't even bother applying for a state license" Even if you are a P.E. don't even bother as well. Only NICET certification is allowed. Second of all I believe that the apprenticeship program is garbage (my opinion only). I am a member of the Local 638 NYC (most reputable local in the country) and I have to tell you that I did not learned anything thru the apprenticeship program. I went to the F.A.S.T school program in Florida back in 1993 and I thought it was a waist of my time as well. I took the NICET test about 16 times in total for different fields and what I learned is far beyond what I expected. My point is that NICET sprinkler layout is not only for designers because I am not a designer. If you have a foremen on site that is at least level II on layout he will be a better decision maker when it comes to technical stuff and will understand better any changes needed while in the field. Then he can have the helper run the 300 while he is on the phone with your company's designer making changes if required. Trust me -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:20 PM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing For clarification, apprenticeship programs are recognized and have been recognized before NICET was even formed. So, if the contractor regularly works in seismic areas then the apprenticeship on the job training hours would include training in eq bracing installation as part of installation of overhead sprinkler systems. Also, ISO 9001: 2000 clearly recognizes an established apprenticeship program for training and requires it unless the employer has a formal training program. Regarding the NFSA and AFSA courses, they are training classes taught by experts. The NICET is a testing agency (although apparently they are now in the plan review business too). But please dont give NICET any ideas. They would be all too happy to take money and develop testing for how to operate a pipe threading machine, how to blow your nose, etc etc. On 4/29/2011 2:01 PM, John Denhardt wrote: > Well stated George. I can not see sending a field person through > NICET certification for design unless he or she was becoming a designer. > > John > > John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE > Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated > 5113 Berwyn Road > College Park, Maryland 20740 > Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: > 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:32 PM > To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing > > Well, because that's not what they do for a living. > And I don't run my ET's thru the apprenticeship course, cause they run > a mouse, not a 300. > I've achieved NICT III twice, and I am mystified by seismic > requirements since I'm blessed enough to live on the right coast. > So here's a guy been there as you suggest, done that twice, - and I > still don't know lateral from longitudinal. > But I know people in shaky places. > > Seriously, in developing the metrics for the "new" NICET cert for > layout, there was NO mention that I can recall over past 5 years or so we've been working on it that we entertained the notion of fitters taking it. None. Certainly there's no harm in it, other than if it isn't something they practice everyday, and I'm not sure how you'd have them keep up with the Practioner part of their certification, and they'll THNIK they know as much/more than your real ETs, and maybe they do, but you don't want them to veer from the approved dwgs too far thinking they know, when either the technology changed, the rules changed, or something else, and they're actually wong. I'm convinced NICET certification doesn't make you infallible. > > Might do better getting em trained in diesel maintenance and repair so they could PM fire pumps for ya. > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > glc at rowesprinkler.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus Carrasquillo > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:16 PM > To: tmack at mfpdesign.com; sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing > > Yeah I know but I will rather my site foremen to be nicet certified in layout rather than just some random fitter with no nicet certification dont you think. Why not send your fitters/foremen to get nicet certified period. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:07 PM, "Travis Mack, SET" wrote: > >> NICET does not certify fitters. It is usually not your NICET >> designers or Inspectors putting in sway bracing. >> Travis Mack, SET >> MFP Design, LLC >> www.mfpdesign.com >> >> Sent on the SprintR Now Network from my BlackBerryR >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jesus Carrasquillo >> Sender: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.orgDate: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 >> 13:53:15 >> To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Reply-To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Cc: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing >> >> That is why you must have your guys certified thru nicet rather than >> any apprenticeship program. Nicet is recognized nationaly but >> apprenticeship program is not beside the nicet is more comprehensive >> than the afsa and nfsa programs >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> -- Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C Xenia OH 45385 Ph: 937-376-2333 Fx: 614-455-4324 www.cherokee-fire.com Visit our Blog! www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com ******This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.*** _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat From RodD at rapidfireinc.com Mon May 2 11:21:51 2011 From: RodD at rapidfireinc.com (Rod DiBona) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:21:51 -0600 Subject: Earthquake Bracing In-Reply-To: <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A35917@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> References: <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121D390F2D2@RAPID-08.RFP.local> <625571737.20110422065849@sc.rr.com> <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121D390F379@RAPID-08.RFP.local> <723E6B5F-1973-4FC2-9F96-9FC8E8D186A5@njfiresystems.com> <1761964839-1303495621-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2016031969-@bda2610.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <7ECFA8F7-ACB6-4F3D-9862-57CB7CB07846@njfiresystems.com> <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A3569A@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> <4DBB013A.4080007@aol.com>, <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A35917@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> Message-ID: <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121DB4C7C0C@RAPID-08.RFP.local> Well said. Agree. Nicet is not the answer although any extra training done is fine in my view. I started this thread trying to find the best training for our field crews on bracing. I think we are going to put the responsibility on our PM's ( our PM 's are also the designers) to: 1. Make sure the drawings are comprehensive and accurate to job specific conditions, attachments, location of flex cplgs etc. 2. Provide a "cheat sheet" specific to the manufacturer we are using and reminding our foreman of NFPA basics. 3. Follow up to make sure installation complies. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:44 AM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing I'm not sure what code of ethics this industry had as an industry... http://www.nfsa.org/codeofethics.pdf is the code of ethics for members of the NFSA. The FL and GA state associations have one, SFPE has a Canon of Ethics, NSPE has one, NICET has one..... and I'm sure if you don't believe the training you got from the best local in the whole world was worthwhile, one would hope that your claim they are the best in the world may be a bit dubious. As for the problem you seem to perceive of excess profits, I believe the economy cured this problem for about all of us for the past couple years. As a contractor who would like to make a profit, is entitled to make a profit, and has made significant investment at risk to create a firm capable of making profits, I personally am offended by your claim that any time we save a buck over what your opinion of what should have been done, we're making excessive profits. Seems you not only investigate, but do so with the unscrupulous contractor already convicted, by your predisposition. You carry a gavel and magnifying glass with your fine-tooth comb? If you expect to have installers at a minimum of NICET Level II, how would you keep them certified as "active practioners"? If your field force is actively involved in the layout of fire sprinkler systems, then there's something wrong with your organization. If you're having them certified but not allowing them to keep their certification current, what have you accomplished? You'd have guys who once passed a test on a body of knowledge, but are no longer recognized- in NYC or anywhere else in the country- as NICET-certified ETs. Or, you could keep them certified by misleading NICET as to their true duties- not likely from someone bemoaning the lack of ethics in our industry, I hope. As a contractor employing CETs and encouraging NICET certification, as a guy intimately involved in the rewrite of what NICET certification is intended to provide our industry, and as a proud member of the automatic sprinkler industry here in the USA, I find your insistence in having fitters certified puzzling, and your general condemnation of unscrupulous contractors disturbing. I'm not against additional education beyond the usual base metrics, but our industry has produced a product for over 100 years that has served the public very well. Research what you're contracting to do, get it designed, install it, perform acceptance testing, and try to have them maintain it. Each role is defined, and although I'll be the first to tell you it isn't perfect, its working a lot better than many things in our society. I've tried to improve the certification process and how it fits in the sprinkler industry of the new millennium, you work on taking the licenses of those not complying by the rules. I wish I could say that the system works, but that jerk that glued concealed plates to the ceiling is still hanging pipe for his brother in NorCal. You've got your work cut out for you, and if your job is to deal with nothing but the worst contractors in your area, I can see where you'd get a jaded perspective. George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax glc at rowesprinkler.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus M Carrasquillo Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:55 PM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing No debate here. Everything started because field technicians do not understand sway bracing specs and installations. If such technician had some sort of certification such as NICET most likely problem could have being figured out in the field. All technicians know how to do is cut and thread pipe and that is sad for the industry. That is why these industry no longer has code of ethics. Is more of reducing cost to make larger profits. That is all. Thankfully I am on the other side of the fence. Investigate unscrupulous contractors that did not performed work as required by industry standards -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Craig.Prahl at ch2m.com Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:17 PM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing I wouldn't care if my foreman was a Nicet IV. Just passing the test is only part of understanding system design and layouts. So no disrespect intended but the layout decisions need to be made by someone with more knowledge of the project than the installer unless he, himself, determined all the criteria, did the design and was also going to be the one who personally installed the job. Adlibbing in the field without understanding why something was laid out a certian way isn't always a good idea. But honestly where's the debate, if you want to get you field guys NICET certified, go for it. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 ________________________________________ From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus M Carrasquillo [jmc at njfiresystems.com] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:54 PM To: fwilson at cherokee-fire.com; sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing Well I understand all that and do respect everyone's opinions as well however let me explain myself a little better. First of all 75-80 % of all states do not recognize apprenticeship programs for any licensing purposes. I am licensed in 7 states and the first thing they told me was "If you are not NICET certified don't even bother applying for a state license" Even if you are a P.E. don't even bother as well. Only NICET certification is allowed. Second of all I believe that the apprenticeship program is garbage (my opinion only). I am a member of the Local 638 NYC (most reputable local in the country) and I have to tell you that I did not learned anything thru the apprenticeship program. I went to the F.A.S.T school program in Florida back in 1993 and I thought it was a waist of my time as well. I took the NICET test about 16 times in total for different fields and what I learned is far beyond what I expected. My point is that NICET sprinkler layout is not only for designers because I am not a designer. If you have a foremen on site that is at least level II on layout he will be a better decision maker when it comes to technical stuff and will understand better any changes needed while in the field. Then he can have the helper run the 300 while he is on the phone with your company's designer making changes if required. Trust me -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:20 PM To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing For clarification, apprenticeship programs are recognized and have been recognized before NICET was even formed. So, if the contractor regularly works in seismic areas then the apprenticeship on the job training hours would include training in eq bracing installation as part of installation of overhead sprinkler systems. Also, ISO 9001: 2000 clearly recognizes an established apprenticeship program for training and requires it unless the employer has a formal training program. Regarding the NFSA and AFSA courses, they are training classes taught by experts. The NICET is a testing agency (although apparently they are now in the plan review business too). But please dont give NICET any ideas. They would be all too happy to take money and develop testing for how to operate a pipe threading machine, how to blow your nose, etc etc. On 4/29/2011 2:01 PM, John Denhardt wrote: > Well stated George. I can not see sending a field person through > NICET certification for design unless he or she was becoming a designer. > > John > > John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE > Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated > 5113 Berwyn Road > College Park, Maryland 20740 > Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: > 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:32 PM > To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing > > Well, because that's not what they do for a living. > And I don't run my ET's thru the apprenticeship course, cause they run > a mouse, not a 300. > I've achieved NICT III twice, and I am mystified by seismic > requirements since I'm blessed enough to live on the right coast. > So here's a guy been there as you suggest, done that twice, - and I > still don't know lateral from longitudinal. > But I know people in shaky places. > > Seriously, in developing the metrics for the "new" NICET cert for > layout, there was NO mention that I can recall over past 5 years or so we've been working on it that we entertained the notion of fitters taking it. None. Certainly there's no harm in it, other than if it isn't something they practice everyday, and I'm not sure how you'd have them keep up with the Practioner part of their certification, and they'll THNIK they know as much/more than your real ETs, and maybe they do, but you don't want them to veer from the approved dwgs too far thinking they know, when either the technology changed, the rules changed, or something else, and they're actually wong. I'm convinced NICET certification doesn't make you infallible. > > Might do better getting em trained in diesel maintenance and repair so they could PM fire pumps for ya. > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > glc at rowesprinkler.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus Carrasquillo > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:16 PM > To: tmack at mfpdesign.com; sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing > > Yeah I know but I will rather my site foremen to be nicet certified in layout rather than just some random fitter with no nicet certification dont you think. Why not send your fitters/foremen to get nicet certified period. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:07 PM, "Travis Mack, SET" wrote: > >> NICET does not certify fitters. It is usually not your NICET >> designers or Inspectors putting in sway bracing. >> Travis Mack, SET >> MFP Design, LLC >> www.mfpdesign.com >> >> Sent on the SprintR Now Network from my BlackBerryR >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jesus Carrasquillo >> Sender: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.orgDate: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 >> 13:53:15 >> To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Reply-To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Cc: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing >> >> That is why you must have your guys certified thru nicet rather than >> any apprenticeship program. Nicet is recognized nationaly but >> apprenticeship program is not beside the nicet is more comprehensive >> than the afsa and nfsa programs >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> -- Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C Xenia OH 45385 Ph: 937-376-2333 Fx: 614-455-4324 www.cherokee-fire.com Visit our Blog! www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com ******This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.*** _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat _______________________________________________ Sprinklerchat mailing list Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat From cherokeefirepro at aol.com Mon May 2 17:11:01 2011 From: cherokeefirepro at aol.com (Forest Wilson) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 18:11:01 -0400 Subject: Earthquake Bracing In-Reply-To: <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A35917@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> References: <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121D390F2D2@RAPID-08.RFP.local> <625571737.20110422065849@sc.rr.com> <86C83B0D8D78514FBE1F10F36F7B1F5121D390F379@RAPID-08.RFP.local> <723E6B5F-1973-4FC2-9F96-9FC8E8D186A5@njfiresystems.com> <1761964839-1303495621-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2016031969-@bda2610.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <7ECFA8F7-ACB6-4F3D-9862-57CB7CB07846@njfiresystems.com> <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A3569A@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> <4DBB013A.4080007@aol.com>, <5790F0C5B5FE3C48B54A27206761B3200FF5A35917@RSDC01.rowesprinkler.local> Message-ID: <4DBF2BF5.1010103@aol.com> Well, One could say that all companies should be registered and certified as complying with the ISO 9001: 2008 standard for quality management, and that could be achieved without NICET certs in the field. I looked at your website and I see that you have placed a lot of emphasis on NICET certification. You are to be commended for pursuing excellence in this industry. I understand that you are very concerned about quality control and use the NICET certifications as a method of achieving quality control. I am also concerned about quality control and have the Code of Ethics that George referenced posted on my office wall. Its a policy and quality control procedures must be in place to ensure that the policy is followed. Cherokee Fire also participates in the OSHA small business consultation program, the NFSA Best Practices program, and a host of other quality control programs. Our short term goal is to apply for ISO 9001 2008 certification in 2011. In the end, its like Craig said : There's no debate, if a company needs to NICET certify its installers in order to meet its quality control standards then certainly do so. George mentions a good point: NICET requires experience. In this industry, it is very possible to work with a layout technician with 30 years of experience that will have a difficult time documenting it and verifying it if self employed. That's one issue NICET refuses to address, even university's allow anyone from the street, to walk in and say: I want to challenge the courses, and be issued a degree. If Grinnell or Parmalee were alive today they may not qualify for NICET certification! NICET is only recently learning of computer based testing? On 5/2/2011 11:44 AM, George Church wrote: > I'm not sure what code of ethics this industry had as an industry... http://www.nfsa.org/codeofethics.pdf is the code of ethics for members of the NFSA. The FL and GA state associations have one, SFPE has a Canon of Ethics, NSPE has one, NICET has one..... and I'm sure if you don't believe the training you got from the best local in the whole world was worthwhile, one would hope that your claim they are the best in the world may be a bit dubious. > > As for the problem you seem to perceive of excess profits, I believe the economy cured this problem for about all of us for the past couple years. As a contractor who would like to make a profit, is entitled to make a profit, and has made significant investment at risk to create a firm capable of making profits, I personally am offended by your claim that any time we save a buck over what your opinion of what should have been done, we're making excessive profits. Seems you not only investigate, but do so with the unscrupulous contractor already convicted, by your predisposition. You carry a gavel and magnifying glass with your fine-tooth comb? > > If you expect to have installers at a minimum of NICET Level II, how would you keep them certified as "active practioners"? If your field force is actively involved in the layout of fire sprinkler systems, then there's something wrong with your organization. If you're having them certified but not allowing them to keep their certification current, what have you accomplished? You'd have guys who once passed a test on a body of knowledge, but are no longer recognized- in NYC or anywhere else in the country- as NICET-certified ETs. Or, you could keep them certified by misleading NICET as to their true duties- not likely from someone bemoaning the lack of ethics in our industry, I hope. > > As a contractor employing CETs and encouraging NICET certification, as a guy intimately involved in the rewrite of what NICET certification is intended to provide our industry, and as a proud member of the automatic sprinkler industry here in the USA, I find your insistence in having fitters certified puzzling, and your general condemnation of unscrupulous contractors disturbing. I'm not against additional education beyond the usual base metrics, but our industry has produced a product for over 100 years that has served the public very well. Research what you're contracting to do, get it designed, install it, perform acceptance testing, and try to have them maintain it. Each role is defined, and although I'll be the first to tell you it isn't perfect, its working a lot better than many things in our society. > > I've tried to improve the certification process and how it fits in the sprinkler industry of the new millennium, you work on taking the licenses of those not complying by the rules. I wish I could say that the system works, but that jerk that glued concealed plates to the ceiling is still hanging pipe for his brother in NorCal. You've got your work cut out for you, and if your job is to deal with nothing but the worst contractors in your area, I can see where you'd get a jaded perspective. > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > glc at rowesprinkler.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus M Carrasquillo > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:55 PM > To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing > > No debate here. Everything started because field technicians do not understand sway bracing specs and installations. If such technician had some sort of certification such as NICET most likely problem could have being figured out in the field. All technicians know how to do is cut and thread pipe and that is sad for the industry. That is why these industry no longer has code of ethics. Is more of reducing cost to make larger profits. That is all. > Thankfully I am on the other side of the fence. Investigate unscrupulous contractors that did not performed work as required by industry standards > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Craig.Prahl at ch2m.com > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:17 PM > To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing > > I wouldn't care if my foreman was a Nicet IV. Just passing the test is only part of understanding system design and layouts. So no disrespect intended but the layout decisions need to be made by someone with more knowledge of the project than the installer unless he, himself, determined all the criteria, did the design and was also going to be the one who personally > installed the job. Adlibbing in the field without understanding why > something was laid out a certian way isn't always a good idea. > > But honestly where's the debate, if you want to get you field guys NICET certified, go for it. > > > Craig Prahl > CH2MHILL/SPB > 864-599-4102 > ________________________________________ > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org > [sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus M Carrasquillo [jmc at njfiresystems.com] > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:54 PM > To: fwilson at cherokee-fire.com; sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing > > Well I understand all that and do respect everyone's opinions as well however let me explain myself a little better. > > First of all 75-80 % of all states do not recognize apprenticeship programs for any licensing purposes. I am licensed in 7 states and the first thing they told me was "If you are not NICET certified don't even bother applying for a state license" Even if you are a P.E. don't even bother as well. Only NICET certification is allowed. > Second of all I believe that the apprenticeship program is garbage (my opinion only). I am a member of the Local 638 NYC (most reputable local in the country) and I have to tell you that I did not learned anything thru the apprenticeship program. I went to the F.A.S.T school program in Florida back in 1993 and I thought it was a waist of my time as well. > I took the NICET test about 16 times in total for different fields and what I learned is far beyond what I expected. > My point is that NICET sprinkler layout is not only for designers because I am not a designer. If you have a foremen on site that is at least level II on layout he will be a better decision maker when it comes to technical stuff and will understand better any changes needed while in the field. Then he can have the helper run the 300 while he is on the phone with your company's designer making changes if required. Trust me > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:20 PM > To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing > > For clarification, apprenticeship programs are recognized and have been recognized before NICET was even formed. > So, if the contractor regularly works in seismic areas then the apprenticeship on the job training hours would include training in eq bracing installation as part of installation of overhead sprinkler systems. > Also, ISO 9001: 2000 clearly recognizes an established apprenticeship program for training and requires it unless the employer has a formal training program. > Regarding the NFSA and AFSA courses, they are training classes taught by experts. The NICET is a testing agency (although apparently they are now in the plan review business too). > But please dont give NICET any ideas. They would be all too happy to take money and develop testing for how to operate a pipe threading machine, how to blow your nose, etc etc. > > > > On 4/29/2011 2:01 PM, John Denhardt wrote: >> Well stated George. I can not see sending a field person through >> NICET > certification for design unless he or she was becoming a designer. >> John >> >> John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE >> Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated >> 5113 Berwyn Road >> College Park, Maryland 20740 >> Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: >> 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church >> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:32 PM >> To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Subject: RE: Earthquake Bracing >> >> Well, because that's not what they do for a living. >> And I don't run my ET's thru the apprenticeship course, cause they run >> a > mouse, not a 300. >> I've achieved NICT III twice, and I am mystified by seismic >> requirements > since I'm blessed enough to live on the right coast. >> So here's a guy been there as you suggest, done that twice, - and I >> still > don't know lateral from longitudinal. >> But I know people in shaky places. >> >> Seriously, in developing the metrics for the "new" NICET cert for >> layout, > there was NO mention that I can recall over past 5 years or so we've been working on it that we entertained the notion of fitters taking it. None. > Certainly there's no harm in it, other than if it isn't something they practice everyday, and I'm not sure how you'd have them keep up with the Practioner part of their certification, and they'll THNIK they know as much/more than your real ETs, and maybe they do, but you don't want them to veer from the approved dwgs too far thinking they know, when either the technology changed, the rules changed, or something else, and they're actually wong. I'm convinced NICET certification doesn't make you infallible. >> Might do better getting em trained in diesel maintenance and repair so > they could PM fire pumps for ya. >> >> >> George L. Church, Jr., CET >> Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. >> PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 >> 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax >> glc at rowesprinkler.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jesus Carrasquillo >> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:16 PM >> To: tmack at mfpdesign.com; sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >> Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing >> >> Yeah I know but I will rather my site foremen to be nicet certified in > layout rather than just some random fitter with no nicet certification dont you think. Why not send your fitters/foremen to get nicet certified period. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:07 PM, "Travis Mack, SET" > wrote: >>> NICET does not certify fitters. It is usually not your NICET >>> designers or > Inspectors putting in sway bracing. >>> Travis Mack, SET >>> MFP Design, LLC >>> www.mfpdesign.com >>> >>> Sent on the SprintR Now Network from my BlackBerryR >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Jesus Carrasquillo >>> Sender: sprinklerchat-bounces at firesprinkler.orgDate: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 >>> 13:53:15 >>> To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >>> Reply-To: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >>> Cc: sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org >>> Subject: Re: Earthquake Bracing >>> >>> That is why you must have your guys certified thru nicet rather than >>> any apprenticeship program. Nicet is recognized nationaly but >>> apprenticeship program is not beside the nicet is more comprehensive >>> than the afsa and nfsa programs >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> > -- > Forest Wilson > Project Manager > Cherokee Fire Protection Co. > 1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C > Xenia OH 45385 > Ph: 937-376-2333 > Fx: 614-455-4324 > > www.cherokee-fire.com > Visit our Blog! www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com > > ******This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.*** > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerchat mailing list > Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerchat mailing list > Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerchat mailing list > Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerchat mailing list > Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerchat mailing list > Sprinklerchat at firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerchat -- Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C Xenia OH 45385 Ph: 937-376-2333 Fx: 614-455-4324 www.cherokee-fire.com Visit our Blog! www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com ******This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.***